Fabulous Females

That's what this site is for: a place to gather all of the ideas and observations of real women living out the drama of single life in a world of "hooking up" and "putting out." If you'd like to become a poster, just give us your email address in a comment so we can invite you in! This is a non-discriminatory place to air out your feelings, so please be constructive! We also welcome men to post insight, comments, and advice on today's culture between males and females.

Tuesday, February 06, 2007

Who Will Advocate for Us?

This whole singleness situation in our society is a mess.

We all know it. We all know there’s something wrong with staying single so long, with putting off marriage and children to early middle age. It’s especially disheartening in the Christian sphere, since the church as a universal body has emphatically supported marriage up until fifteen years ago. (This change only occurred in Protestant circles. You will never hear "the gift/call of/to singleness" preached from a Catholic pulpit.)

So we know there’s something wrong, but there’s evidently nothing to be done about it.

We girls have tried everything. We’ve tried contentment, we’ve tried declaring that we’re not ready for marriage yet, we’ve tried dressing well and looking attractive to catch the guys’ attention, we’ve tried focusing on our careers and honing our ambitions both to distract ourselves and to look more attractive and successful, we’ve tried bettering ourselves and cultivating our talents and skills, we’ve tried making ourselves more interesting, we’ve tried being complete people, we’ve tried relying on Jesus to bring that special guy into our lives, we’ve tried patience and waiting, and we’ve tried asking guys out. We’ve tried regular church attendance, frequenting coffee shops and bookstores, enthusiastically sitting down in singles groups, holding dinner parties for single friends in the hopes of encouraging the sprouting of couples, praying, and ignoring the problem. We’ve tried filling the loneliness with friends, roommates, and pets.

Nothing works.

As a go-getter, I’m increasingly frustrated by my fruitless endeavors to effect some result. I’ve tried dating men who aren't Christians, since they ask, but have found that they aren’t to my taste. No matter how great or nice or gentlemanly they are, in the end there’s an insurmountable gap that comes from an unshared faith. If I were a rote Christian it might not matter, but like most other Christian girls my age, it formulates the most crucial part of my own makeup. Dating someone who doesn't have that eventually becomes a Tower of Babel experience – we don’t speak the same language.

So there are no more avenues to explore. I know eHarmony takes time, but let’s be honest, that’s a last recourse. One of desperation, of admitting defeat in drawing any of the men I actually know.

I’m not sure where the break comes. I know a lot of it has to do with our upbringing, so guys, don’t worry, I feel for you. Our parents, for whatever reason (and most of them married young), encouraged us not to date. Was it the advent of True Love Waits? Was it a terror reaction to the rise in teenage promiscuity? At some point I think it boils down to a certain (sometimes well-founded, sometimes not) lack of trust or faith in us on our parents’ part to keep good heads on our shoulders and make responsible decisions, coupled with a lack of supervision. Courtship used to be highly supervised, complete with chaperones, and even dating, up to the 60s, had some pretty severe limitations as to where a young couple could go so as to prevent private trouble-making. Which of course is a very good thing -- we've all seen Romeo and Juliet; we know what unsupervised, unrestrained adolescent passion can do. But the Jesus Movement in the 70s seemed to carry more purity of heart and responsible behavior back into the culture – the Christian culture, at least. My parents were engaged for two years and stayed sexually pure until their marriage. Their friends made it too.

But for some reason, they appeared to think we were fated by our own evil natures to screw it up. (No pun intended.) Never mind that we had been reared on Bible verses and chastity classes, and taught to make good decisions. My parents trusted my decision-making skills in regard to my academics and youth group activities, but not really my social life. And certainly I was discouraged from dating.

(A note to the parents: It's gotta suck raising teenagers in this culture, where kids are encouraged to rebel and society strips away your authority. My parents did the best they could; and in some respects the church did, too; but something didn't happen in cultivating kids for marriage and etiquette.)

And not dating in high school was fine; I didn’t see the point of dating then anyway, because who marries their high school sweethearts all that often anymore? Plus the selection wasn’t exactly winning (and I was a weirdo myself), and if I did like somebody, I had endless hours of paternal teasing to contend with.

Now, my parents had nothing against me dating in college, and put no pressure on me either to stay single or to get married. But they never liked any of the guys I did. (I mean, they were right, but all the same it wasn’t fostering a "try and see" attitude.) And I know a lot of people my age, especially guys, whose parents actively discouraged serious relationships until some undefined future perfect time when everybody was "ready" for it. And these guys’ mothers never wanted them to leave home.

And with the growing absence of wholesome coed group activities, like dances (not the grungy grindy kind, but swing and ballroom and contra) or cookouts, there wasn’t a safe haven to practice interactions with the opposite sex. Men’s mothers and fathers never taught them how to approach a girl, how to date a girl, or often even how to treat a girl, but instead they taught them to "guard their hearts," to wait until they were "stable," and to get a job first. Meanwhile the guys never received guidance or training on how to conquer the natural trepidations that guys legendarily feel about asking a girl to do anything; and were never taught that the achievement of manhood is taking on adult responsibilities – family and career. A career used to be the means by which a man provided for his family; now the career comes first, and family second, if at all. Dating and marriage became this fearsome realm of temptation and commitment that it was best to avoid altogether until a serious relationship "just happened" or until "the right person came along."

So instead of marriage acting as a milemarker of true adulthood, something for a guy to make himself worthy of and strive for, adulthood became entirely career-oriented and marriage something that blew into a person’s life like Mary Poppins when the time was magically right.

So what we have is a generation of people who are largely completely unequipped to get serious and grow up. Adult responsibilities took a strong root with the girls – in this age of women’s power we are taught to fear nothing and achieve everything, and we took it and ran with it – but in the boys there seems to be a spirit of fear that was fostered from a very young age, either by parents or the church environment where any physical contact with girls, any hugs or backrubs, were decried as leading to lust and the downfall of one’s soul – so that men from their mid-twenties onward are left with inexperience in opposite sex interaction, cluelessness as to dating etiquette, a primary focus on self, and a conviction that their own sexuality is abhorrent to God. Or, conversely, with the rise of divorce within the church (and again, aside from the occasional pulpit message about divorce being wrong, nothing much is done about it, to say, God always loves you, but if you're married, you need to stay that way), men in particular are disillusioned, feel that marriage is doomed to fail, or are terrified of ruining their marriages should they try to make a go of it.

And this spirit of fear in some guys manifests itself in snide, bitter, hardhearted attitudes toward women altogether; in others it makes them powerlessly shy and retiring; in others it makes them arrogantly convinced that no girl is good enough for them, because their mothers think so. In a lot of them it has bred a denial of the necessity of family.

We are no longer taught that "for this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother and be united to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh"; we are taught that "a boy or a girl shall leave his or her parents sometime after college and get a fulfilling career and make a lot of money, and then wait until marriage finds him or her, if it ever does."

The guys whose parents taught them otherwise are already married. The rest are waiting for something, and they don’t know what. The rules aren’t clear. Nobody’s taught us what to do next, and there aren’t any signs in the sky.

And nobody’s advocating for us. Because in the end, the guys always have the power. A girl can do everything she can do, up to the point of asking a guy to date her, but if he doesn’t want to, he won’t. If he doesn’t want to "wake up," he won’t. If he doesn’t want to date or get married yet, there’s nothing she can do to convince him otherwise. The scales are tipped away from the women.

This is where we need the older generation to step in. Parents need to be telling their twenty-something sons that it’s time to put aside the childish things and take on manly responsibilities. Marriage is the healthiest state for anyone. Sure, there are some crappy marriages out there, and now that we haven’t been raised to be good husbands and wives there’s a greater risk of things falling apart, since we’re most used to considering ourselves and really don’t know what we’re doing; but there are two thousand years of tradition to draw from, and our own parents’ wisdom, and God’s command to be fruitful and multiply.

The singles need the backing of the older generations. Paul’s letters to Timothy are very clear in expressing the need of young men to be mentored by older men, and young women to be mentored by older women. (This means that dads specifically need to be getting on their sons’ cases; if it’s just the moms doing it, it’s nagging.) The parental generation didn't want us to date, didn't tell us much about the practical aspects of preparing for marriage, and now expects us to take care of ourselves while knowing nothing, or to rely solely on God's Santa Claus provision of that magical mate at that magical moment (when in every other area we know that holiness is something to work toward -- we have responsibilities, things we have to do, in living the Christian life. If we aren't supposed to sit around and do nothing and wait for God to make all our actions holy, then in this area of marriage, which is a creation mandate, we should likewise seek to do something in order to get married). The church culture appears to be so materialistic and afraid of offending, or just cynical about young people’s uncontrollable impulses to sin and resentment or deafness of the church's message, that it says nothing to us about right or wrong, politeness or rudeness, action or inaction.

And the Protestant churches need to stop trying so hard to accommodate singles by legitimizing their situation. This is a unique trend in the entirety of world history, and it has truly scary implications. Putting singleness on the same plane with marriage means that it’s okay never to get married (i.e. learn to live with and for someone other than yourself) or to have children (i.e. preserve Christianity for the future generations – the Psalms describe godly daughters as "pillars gracing a hall," and pillars weren’t only beautiful but structurally vital – produce more salt for the earth, keep the church alive to minister in practical ways to a broken world rife with evil, and carry on the Great Commission). Instead of sanctifying a trend that is strangling the church body and leaving men and women alike feeling frightened, empty, powerless, and alone, the church needs to stand up and tell us to get our acts together and pursue marriage. No more "contentment." No more "education first." No more "wait and God will make it happen." Instead "hear and obey."

Debbie Maken’s book is fantastic. But young women can’t change society by themselves. We need the support of the church authority, of the fathers of the men who aren’t dating, of our mothers to keep their eyes peeled for potential mates for their daughters, or for the single young women around them who live far from their parents. In today’s attitude of fierce independence and the idea that a person’s personal life is nobody else’s business, we need the church to take back its traditional authority over the lives of its members and remind us that our private lives impact the world, and that the church does have the right to tell Christians what to do.

It’s like everybody’s waiting for the girls to do something, when we’re, sadly, on the bottom rung of the power ladder. A lot of guys our age, through their fear or pride or stubbornness, live as if they’re at the top of that ladder. Dads and churches need to remind them that they’re not.

Of course it’s going to take some heroic efforts to rectify our situation. Like I said, we haven’t been taught from childhood that marriage is necessary and that we should be preparing for it. So there’s a lot of internal adjustment to be done, and the whole body needs to come together to do it. And when we finally are married, it’s going to be up to us to teach to our children the things that weren’t taught to us, so that our sons and daughters won’t find themselves growing past youth and locked in a paralysis of ignorance and passivity.

42 Comments:

  • At 9:39 AM, February 06, 2007, Blogger Jennifer said…

    Amen, sister!

     
  • At 2:55 PM, February 06, 2007, Blogger Captain Sensible said…

    Sarah, what can I say? I wholeheartedly agree with (just about!) everything you say here.
    But please don't feel helpless. Making us feel helpless is the work of the enemy. And the enemy has had his own way too long with regard to singleness amongst Christians.
    We have the resource of Debbie Maken's book. We have our own personal sphere of influence, including our church leaders. We have the Internet.
    Let's use every means at our disposal to rid the church body of our unholy attitude to singleness.

     
  • At 6:37 AM, February 07, 2007, Blogger Adam the V said…

    You're preaching to the choir, sister! I agree completely with just about everything you wrote.

    One section I'm not quite sure about:
    "Because in the end, the guys always have the power. A girl can do everything she can do, up to the point of asking a guy to date her, but if he doesn’t want to, he won’t. If he doesn’t want to "wake up," he won’t. If he doesn’t want to date or get married yet, there’s nothing she can do to convince him otherwise. The scales are tipped away from the women."

    I would submit that this statement works equally in reverse. If a man asks a women out and she doesn't want to "wake up" or doesn't want to date, there's nothing the man can do, short of roofying her drink. So I'm not sure why you're saying the man always has the power in this case. In general...of course, I agree - the power (and the responsibility) rests with the man, as it should.

    Thanks for the truthing. In part because of encouragement and conviction from sources like this blog I have for the first time in my 27 years of existance on this planet asked a women out. She said yes. My mind is blown.

     
  • At 8:28 AM, February 07, 2007, Blogger none said…

    Changing the world, Sarah, one man at a time. :D

    I hope things work out with that woman Adam... also, you should post more. The guys don't contribute enough. Maybe we'd be less inclined to feel so powerless if we heard more of your perspectives. :)

     
  • At 9:05 AM, February 07, 2007, Blogger The Prufroquette said…

    YAY!!! THREE CHEERS FOR ADAM!!! HAPPY DANCE!!

    These are the sorts of things that lighten my mind throughout the day. It matters just as much to me that guys are asking out other girls, as that guys are asking me.

    I guess what I meant by the "guys have all the power" is that most of the Christian men I've run into are simply not willing to date, whereas most Christian girls are. For any of the reasons I mentioned, the guys keep silent, while the gals are shouting from the sidelines, "GET UP! DATE US! ASK US OUT!!" But nothing happens. So the balance of power to which I'm referring lies more with the willingness to date anyone at all, rather than specific instances of asking.

     
  • At 2:53 PM, February 07, 2007, Blogger Unknown said…

    I may be mistaken, but it sounds like you are basically just playing the blame game. Shaming someone into doing something has never worked before (you can't fight human nature), and it most certainly will not work in today's high-speed, every man for himself lifestyle.

    Unfortunately, I think the problem is only going to get worse: a lot of men don't view marriage in a positive light so they aren't even going to bother with it. What I don't really understand is why it is a problem, when women always wanted to do their own thing? If anything, women now have lots more opportunities in life to pursue their dreams and aspirations.

     
  • At 3:15 PM, February 07, 2007, Blogger Jennifer said…

    Jim, some interesting viewpoints. Yes, I want to pursue my dreams and aspirations. But why can't I also get married?
    I think Sarah's trying to say that most Christian women desire that: family.
    On Thanksgiving, I visited with some couples from my church. All of them at least middle aged. One woman kept enthusiastically asking me to join this Bible study and read a 'highly popular' book called 'For Women Only.' Apparently it's a guide into what men are 'really like.'
    In my head, I pictured a bunch of desperate, Modern Bride reading women and single moms giggling together. No thanks! She asked me why I wasn't interested and I point blank told her that unless hoardes of Christian men read the male version 'For Men Only' would it really be useful? As far as I know, guys really aren't into that kind of thing.
    This woman (who isn't exactly in touch with the current twentysomething generation) told me that wasn't the purpose. It was to get to know OURSELVES better and learn to be content. Great! If that was true, why weren't we just reading the Bible instead of some book to decode men???
    It's that kind of attitude that makes me want to hurl. I'm a confident, intelligent, independent young woman. Yet is it too much to ask for someone to get dinner with? Why is it so hard for us?

     
  • At 3:36 PM, February 07, 2007, Blogger Unknown said…

    > I'm a confident, intelligent, independent young woman.

    I agree with you 100% on your assessment of yourself, and also think it applies to most other women as well. Women have made a lot of progress in the last three, four decades. That's why it doesn't make sense to me why Sarah was trying to play the "victim" card.

    If women are strong and independent, able to do things for themselves, then why are women also trying to come off like they are poor, defenseless creatures that need some special protection and help? You see the contradiction I am getting at? You are essentially trying to play both sides of the argument, which just doesn't work in the real world.

     
  • At 3:56 PM, February 07, 2007, Blogger The Prufroquette said…

    Throwing the blame game back doesn't work either.

    Because, Jim, my dreams and aspirations include marriage and family. That's pretty much at the top of the dream list.

    So, then, why can't I have it? If we live in such a world where women can get whatever they want, I should be able to snap my fingers and get a man. But instead I think you were implying that I should be content with what I have -- all these "opportunities" to "do things myself" -- and stop wanting one man with whom to spend the rest of my life. I'm pursuing "opportunities" (since this always means career) and following other dreams too, but they're not good enough by themselves. Not by a long shot.

    And actually, come to think of it, it's only a "blame game" if I'm pointing fingers and taking no responsibility for my own actions. But, as mentioned in the body of the post, I've done everything I can do. If I've exhausted all my avenues and resources and still am coming up empty, something else must be responsible. Something is wrong.

    Further, this sort of argument only really applies to Christians. If you don't subscribe to the faith, then do your own thing; there's no one to tell you otherwise and you get to call your own shots. But declaring yourself a member of the faith endows you with certain obligations. Among holy living, lovingkindness to others, and spreading the Gospel is the obligation to family.

    Responsibility is paramount. It eclipses anyone's right to please him/herself.

     
  • At 4:58 PM, February 07, 2007, Blogger Unknown said…

    I was doing some googling related to this topic and I came upon an article I thought you might like to read: http://www.christianwomen.net/marriage.html I would like to see what you think about it.

     
  • At 5:10 PM, February 07, 2007, Blogger The Prufroquette said…

    Hm, and actually, Jim, you're saying the same thing we are -- that we're strong, independent, and unable to get a husband. The only difference is that you're saying we shouldn't care about it.

     
  • At 6:06 PM, February 07, 2007, Blogger none said…

    Since I was young, I focused my goals and my energy on several things, including pleasing God, achieving my professional goals in medicine and science, being independent and self-sufficient, being a good, kind person, and giving back to society/helping the underserved. I wasn't terribly excited about the idea of marriage; I just considered it a necessity since I believe in sexual purity outside of marriage and I didn't want to die a virgin. I never particularly desired marriage, though, and I still don't know if I want kids.

    I still hold all of those aforementioned values dearly, and I'm still working toward those goals, only I've realized in the past year or so that I actually DO want to get married. I accomplished many of my goals by actively pursuing them and acquiring necessary skills. I have been able to meet all of my goals in the areas of education, career, friendship, living in a city of my choice, accomplishing my biggest childhood dream, spiritual growth, etc. I even accomplished goals that seemed out of reach at times. I accomplished these things through hard work, prayer, equipping myself with necessary skills, learning how to deal with setbacks, great personal sacrifice, and God's grace. Now that I consider marriage a goal, you would think that all of those prior accomplishments, as well as the qualities I developed in order to achieve them would make it seem likely that I could get married if I wanted to. However, it looks unlikely right now given that I've gotten no significant response from men in school, work, church, social, or internet environments. And I'd like to think that's not solely attributable to faults of mine.

    I want romantic love and companionship, and as a Christian, I consider the only permanent vessel for that to be marriage. If you tell a woman like me that I shouldn't want to get married, you're telling me that I shouldn't ever desire a romantic or sexual life. This is unrealistic for most human beings, myself included. So, yes, I want to get married. The trouble is, this "goal" cannot be achieved through my choices alone; it takes the cooperation of another person. It's a tough pill to swallow to acknowledge that I could be doing everything "right" and still not get married. And before you assume that men can smell desperation on me, consider that I am still in no RUSH to get married right away and throw off no vibes, and that I am generally viewed by my peers as self-sufficient and confident.

    So, while I have no intention of ranting against men and growing bitter over their actions or lack thereof, I am concerned at the trend in our culture (which has certainly crept into Christian communities) for men to view marriage as bad/scary/something to be roped into by conniving women. This is further complicated by the fact that men still seem to want the benefits of female friendship, affection, and sensuality, but without the responsibility. So, when I see men my age and much older who are content to rely on, flirt with, oggle, lead on, and casually date women, and yet cling to the freedom of being a bachelor, or worse, not even treat women with common decency and respect (e.g. promising to call and then disappearing off the face of the earth), well, I have to admit, I get a little upset. I think that's completely reasonable.

    There's something wrong in a world where amazing women (beautiful inside and out), such as the contributors to this blog cannot get more from men than a pseudo-date or empty promise. There may be a lot of jerks out there, but my single non-Christian girlfriends do not have this problem.

     
  • At 10:20 PM, February 07, 2007, Blogger Unknown said…

    > I am concerned at the trend in our culture (which has certainly crept into Christian communities) for men to view marriage as bad/scary/something to be roped into by conniving women.

    I don't know if I would call it a trend in our culture; I think it's now more of a fact of life. I have talked to many different guys and most of them have that view of marriage. The only guys who don't are the ones from traditional, two-parent (usually religious) families. I think you have to admit that there is some truth to it, considering all of the crap that goes on today in and after marriage. Word of mouth is a powerful force.

    > This is further complicated by the fact that men still seem to want the benefits of female friendship, affection, and sensuality, but without the responsibility.

    I would argue that there are just as many women who use men for friendship and affection as there are men who use women. It's a two-way street. You've probably seen attractive women who have lots of guy friends, while average women just have some (or no) guy friends. Usually the attractive women are just using the guy friends for an ego boost or for something to do when they are bored or to fix something. When the men ask the woman to turn it into a romantic relationship she'll often say she doesn't see them in that light. This is not much different than what men do to women.

    > There's something wrong in a world where amazing women (beautiful inside and out), such as the contributors to this blog cannot get more from men than a pseudo-date or empty promise. There may be a lot of jerks out there, but my single non-Christian girlfriends do not have this problem.

    Please don't take this the wrong way, but why the heck are you trying to compare yourself to other women? Nothing good ever comes from that: you feel like a failure because your life just doesn't match up, and you become jealous of others. It's a lethal combination. And who's to says that those other women you are talking about aren't as equally beautiful inside and out? Just because you don't see it doesn't mean they aren't.

    Related to how you feel about men paying attention to other, less valuable women while giving you the cold shoulder, this is basically how men feel when women want bad boys and aren't interested in nice guys. Men wonder what's wrong, but after a while they just move on.

     
  • At 5:04 AM, February 08, 2007, Blogger The Prufroquette said…

    Wow, Jim, some of your statements are as sweeping in generalizations as those of the mildly unhinged author of the article you linked.

    It seems as if you're trying to tell us that we're good enough on our own (thanks, btw) and able to do anything we choose, but that we're never going to get what we're saying here that we want.

    For the record, the contributors to this blog are beautiful, and from a realistic standard. I'm no lagger in the looks department myself. But I don't have a lot of guy friends -- just about none, in fact, so I can hardly be accused of using anyone, or of being average and unnoticed.

    I'd like to ask you, since the people here are pretty upfront about the roots of their perspectives, are you approaching this as someone who claims the Christian faith, or not? It would help me to understand some of your points.

    And I didn't see an answer from you as to the interesting fact that we are saying the same thing as you are -- we're great, intelligent, and strong, but unable to find a man. Really, are you just telling us we shouldn't care? That all of the great things we can do alone are good enough pacifiers that we should deny what we want most?

    As to your observations that human nature can't be fought and that avoiding marriage is just a "fact of life," that's pretty cynical, and, I think, furthermore unfounded. When people notice that a trend or "fact of life" is wrong, they have a responsibility to change it. You've said yourself that the women's lib movement brought about huge amounts of change in the past forty years, when for millenia it had been a "fact of life" that women were less intelligent, less able, and less human than men.

    This "fact of life," this attitude toward marriage, can be changed as well. Of course it will require vast amounts of energy (hence the need for greater authoritative involvement), but it can be done.

    But hey, if you like upholding the status quo for no other reason than it's the status quo, that's obviously your choice. Just be clear about the fact that it's a choice.

     
  • At 8:13 AM, February 08, 2007, Blogger none said…

    "Please don't take this the wrong way, but why the heck are you trying to compare yourself to other women? Nothing good ever comes from that: you feel like a failure because your life just doesn't match up, and you become jealous of others. It's a lethal combination. And who's to says that those other women you are talking about aren't as equally beautiful inside and out? Just because you don't see it doesn't mean they aren't.

    Related to how you feel about men paying attention to other, less valuable women while giving you the cold shoulder, this is basically how men feel when women want bad boys and aren't interested in nice guys. Men wonder what's wrong, but after a while they just move on."

    Jim, you have completely misunderstood and misconstrued my point. I wasn't comparing myself to anyone at all. What I mean is that I have a lot of friends who, from an objective standpoint, would be considered above average in intelligence and attractiveness, and who are nice people. Some are Christian, and many are non-Christian. The non-Christian ones get asked out a lot more, date a lot more, and more of them are in serious relationships, engaged, or married, and it's not because they want it more. I actually wasn't talking about my own attractiveness level at all; I was just saying that the other women on this blog are great and very attractive and there's no objective reason why they would have more trouble getting dates than my non-Christian friends.

    And I definitely didn't refer to, or consider, other women to be less valuable, so I don't know where you got that idea from. I am not one of those women who has trouble seeing the beauty in other women.

    And I certainly would not be considered a failure if I were compared to other women. Did you even read what I wrote, or are you just trying to stir up trouble?

     
  • At 8:53 AM, February 08, 2007, Blogger The Prufroquette said…

    Jess, you're fabulous. :)

    And I just want to take another moment to say,

    GO ADAM! HOORAY!!!

    Since that kind of response -- breaking through the things we have(n't) been taught to make other people's situations better -- is what begins to realize our hopes. It points to positive change.

    So, Adam, if I can be all girly, when are you taking her out? Where?

     
  • At 3:17 PM, February 08, 2007, Blogger none said…

    You guys must check out this article: http://boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001443.cfm

     
  • At 6:17 PM, February 08, 2007, Blogger Unknown said…

    > What I mean is that I have a lot of friends who, from an objective standpoint, would be considered above average in intelligence and attractiveness, and who are nice people. Some are Christian, and many are non-Christian. The non-Christian ones get asked out a lot more, date a lot more, and more of them are in serious relationships, engaged, or married, and it's not because they want it more. I actually wasn't talking about my own attractiveness level at all; I was just saying that the other women on this blog are great and very attractive and there's no objective reason why they would have more trouble getting dates than my non-Christian friends.

    You seem to be looking for some silver bullet that can explain this "mysterious" phenomenon, but I don't know if there is one. If I may ask, what do you think separates your Christian and non-Christian friends in terms of what men want? If your Christian friends are attractive and intelligent, and yet don't go on lots of dates, then it must be something else that attracts the men. That's where I would start looking for answers.

     
  • At 6:39 PM, February 08, 2007, Blogger The Prufroquette said…

    And again, GO ADAM!!!!

     
  • At 8:24 PM, February 08, 2007, Blogger none said…

    "If your Christian friends are attractive and intelligent, and yet don't go on lots of dates, then it must be something else that attracts the men. That's where I would start looking for answers."


    You know what Jim? Maybe I've been blinded by my own feelings of failure and jealousy. Do you have any ideas about what really attracts men? Maybe if I knew what to change about myself, I wouldn't have to be alone forever. Honestly, any advice would be much appreciated.

     
  • At 9:39 PM, February 08, 2007, Blogger Dawn said…

    "If your Christian friends are attractive and intelligent, and yet don't go on lots of dates, then it must be something else that attracts the men. That's where I would start looking for answers."

    Actually, I'd suspect it has more to do with attitudes on the seriousness of dating--Christians are much more likely than non-Christians to take dating seriously, rather than just as something casual. And if you're a woman that only will date Christian men, your dateable pool is much, much smaller.

     
  • At 12:25 AM, February 09, 2007, Blogger Unknown said…

    > Do you have any ideas about what really attracts men?

    Men's tastes are as varied as there are flavors of ice cream. I don't think there is anything generalized I can say that would be of help.

    What I was talking about before was just trying to truthfully evaluate yourself, to try to look at what the men around you see. I realize this is something that will probably be painful, but it also will help to open your eyes. How I see myself is often different than how others see me. The difficulty comes when you try to align them.

    > Actually, I'd suspect it has more to do with attitudes on the seriousness of dating--Christians are much more likely than non-Christians to take dating seriously, rather than just as something casual.

    This is definitely part of the larger problem of Christian dating. It's a simple numbers game, which unfortunately doesn't favor women.

    The thing I think you need to remember is that whether you date for fun or with the intent of marriage, you still have to go through the process. So, why not enjoy it?

     
  • At 5:09 AM, February 09, 2007, Blogger The Prufroquette said…

    Hm, and there's this post thing, you know, above all these comments, that explores a few ideas as to why the Christian dating scene is so grim.

    (Great point, too, Dawn! Guys who aren't Christians seem much more comfortable with the process of dating...but they're also comfortable trying to get you into bed, or breaking up with you when you won't follow. With Christians, the point is entirely different, and now that we're not very young adults, the whole idea of dating is even less casual; and, since almost none of us have had any training in that arena, we're at an impasse of desire and fear.)

     
  • At 5:45 AM, February 09, 2007, Blogger Adam the V said…

    Dawn - you stole my comment. That's what I was going to say :)

    (Disclaimer: what follows are wild generalizations and personal opinions) In my experience, Christians are just too UPTIGHT. You're right, Dawn - we take dating way too seriously. Christian guys I know hesitate to ask women out because they know that that action will automatically be construed as an Act of Marriage. Of course - I don't think "casual" dating as the world defines it is a good idea, but there's got to be a middle ground. Like most of contemporary Christian culture today, I think most Christian men are erring way too far on the side of caution and passivity.

    Yes - most of my non-Christian female friends get asked out more often, date more often, and also have their heart broken more often and end up with STDs more often. Would you rather have 1 date a year with incredible potential mate material or 10 casual flings?

    Of course, none of this intellectual hooha makes you feel any better when no one is...paying attention to you in that special way, thinking of you when they should be working, or sending emails with nothing but "how was your day?" in the body.

    Now Sarah - of course you can be all girly. This is FabulousFemales of course. I realized I may have come off as even more of a loser than I am in the previous post. I've had 4 relationships in my past of varying length and quality - but this is the first time I've asked a woman out that I don't know that well. All past relationships have developed organically out of long deepening friendships. I thought that was the way to do it until somewhat recently. It's been six years, however, since I've made friends with a Christian woman. That kind of setup doesn't really lend itself to that kind of dating :) I convinced myself I was content (or at least told myself that enough times) and didn't take an ACTIVE role. It wasn't until I stopped lying to myself - and admitted that I was NOT content - that I was able to find more contentment in my discontent. (if that makes any sense)

    I honestly didn't know there were other people, males and females, that were struggling with the same things I was until I stumbled across this blog and others like boundless recently. Viva la internet!

    Anywho - on to the date. She likes live music and Indian food...so, we're going to an Indian restaurant and to hear some bluegrass bands. I asked her out after a super-bowl get together last Sunday, and at first I was a little worried because while she said yes, she didn't seem to happy about it. But since then we've talked on the phone and she seems excited, so maybe she was just as nervous as I was. She...is beautiful...I'll just say that. Part of my nervousness in asking her out was I just feel a bit of my league. But - she wouldn't have said yes unless she really wanted to go out, right? Maybe? I dearly pray it's not a pity date.

    We're going out tomorrow night...so perhaps I'll post a recap :) What are the chances of becoming a contributor?

     
  • At 9:58 AM, February 09, 2007, Blogger The Prufroquette said…

    Growing and growing! Just leave us your email in a comment (you can delete it after you've gotten the invite from Jen) and we'll add you to the contributors list. Open, strong-minded, articulate, sympathetic men going through the learning process with us are always a welcome formal addition to our forum.

    And I think that sounds like a GREAT date. As for pity dating, one can never say for sure until afterward, unfortunately, but I've certainly turned down guys I wasn't interested in (politely, of course; I tend to be pretty nice in person) because I figure a pity date is worse than no date, for both parties. I know a lot of other girls who feel the same way. And with this broad wash of no dating, being approached by a guy is kind of like running into a loose lion at the zoo, and so a girl might be taken aback for a minute, but once she finds the lion is friendly, everything's good.

    So enjoy! And let us know how it went! (Bluegrass bands? Indian food? Man, my city needs to grow.)

    I'm hoping that you can find that middle ground (it's got to exist, right?), and that your example sparks hope and encouragement (and action) in the other Christian singles who read this blog.

    Oh, and you got mad props from one of our sister blogs in the UK. :) So now you're an international hero!

     
  • At 10:09 AM, February 09, 2007, Blogger Adam the V said…

    This comment has been removed by the author.

     
  • At 10:25 AM, February 09, 2007, Blogger Captain Sensible said…

    Adam - I really appreciate your honesty here: "It wasn't until I stopped lying to myself - and admitted that I was NOT content - that I was able to find more contentment in my discontent."
    This is spot on in my opinion. I really don't believe God is glorified by fake contentment, no matter what the so-called Christian dating "experts" tell people.

    Debbie Maken puts it very well here: "When Paul is talking about contentment, he is saying that he has an object for his contentment, that is, the Lord. He finds his contentment in the Lord, not in his circumstances, whether he is rich or poor, well fed or hungry. It is entirely possible to be content in the Lord yet find your circumstances are less than desirable. Just like a person who is wrongly imprisoned need not marvel at bread and water in jail, I do not think that those who are single need extol its greatness or pretend that it is inconsequential just to prove that they are somehow 'content.' Even in I Cor. 7, Paul advised those who were slaves to gain their freedom; it has nothing to do with whether the slaves were content with their masters, it was an acknowledgement that man was never designed to be a slave and should be working toward his freedom. The same analogy works for those who are single; they should be working to achieve marriage, instead of pretending that the status quo is marvelous."

     
  • At 11:08 AM, February 09, 2007, Blogger The Prufroquette said…

    That's one of the captains of the UK blog who gave you "mad props" (i.e. congratulations and support). :)

     
  • At 2:42 PM, February 09, 2007, Blogger none said…

    "What I was talking about before was just trying to truthfully evaluate yourself, to try to look at what the men around you see. I realize this is something that will probably be painful, but it also will help to open your eyes. How I see myself is often different than how others see me. The difficulty comes when you try to align them."

    I'm going to embark on this painful journey of self-inspection. Thanks Jim. Maybe I can figure out what men think is wrong with me, and dedicate my energy to fixing it.

     
  • At 2:42 PM, February 09, 2007, Blogger none said…

    This comment has been removed by the author.

     
  • At 6:16 PM, February 09, 2007, Blogger Unknown said…

    > Guys who aren't Christians seem much more comfortable with the process of dating...but they're also comfortable trying to get you into bed, or breaking up with you when you won't follow.

    I wasn't implying anything about men just being interested in having sex with women. While those men are certainly out there, there are men who want more than just sex. Sex by itself doesn't make somebody happy. You just have to look at all the men (and women) going from relationship to relationship looking for the next "best" thing.

    There was an article posted here a while back about why Christian men are hesitant to date. The guy talked about how there is so much expectation and pressure that a man has to face when asking for a date, that he often wonders whether it is worth the effort or not. This is why I was saying that you should enjoy the process: the man can't operate otherwise.

    It sounds like you believe that you'll just do a Star Trek thing where you get transported from just knowing a guy one minute and then you're married to him the next. Dating guidelines are useful to follow, but they don't mean anything if you aren't dating!

     
  • At 6:36 PM, February 09, 2007, Blogger The Prufroquette said…

    Hm, looks like I'll have to temper my beam-me-up-Scottie expectations.

    Of course I expect there to be a process...it's just nice when there IS a process, instead of always a potential process that never quite seems to come to fruition. You know, like a virtual particle. It has to realize its tendency to be if you want to be able to study it.

     
  • At 6:59 PM, February 09, 2007, Blogger Unknown said…

    > Of course I expect there to be a process...it's just nice when there IS a process, instead of always a potential process that never quite seems to come to fruition.

    Have you ever tried asking the men that you are interested in what they want in a woman? You can generally tell if a man is a "process" kind of guy by what answers he gives. I don't know if you consider that too forward, but it's worth a shot.

     
  • At 7:39 AM, February 10, 2007, Blogger The Prufroquette said…

    Hahahaha, I asked a guy out last week. I'm not all that concerned with being forward. :)

     
  • At 8:57 PM, February 10, 2007, Blogger Dawn said…

    Wow, Adam--you're on my music mailing list! I knew that last name looked familiar....

     
  • At 10:08 PM, February 10, 2007, Blogger Yax said…

    I intended to respond to this right after it was posted, and then I forgot. Now look what has happened. Certainly the topic appears to be a fertile one. I also tried to post this once before and it didn't seem to work, so hopefully it will go through this time.

    As one of the twenty-something Christian men referred to in the post, I find that I largely agree with what Sarah is saying. Growing up in a Protestant church, there always seemed to be an underlying message of “You’re not old enough to be dating” and an even more deeply hidden message of “And if you are dating, it’s not the real thing.” I have distinct memories of a youth pastor who would admonish youth couples getting too touchy to “Keep it G rated, guys.” While I’m all for limiting public displays of affection at youth group functions, I think that also sends the message that if you’re under 18, you relationship should be like a Disney movie: something fun and interesting, but clearly meant for kids.

    After 18 years of being told “Not yet” about relationships, many of us went off to college, which, unbeknownst to us, is a magical transmogrifying process at the end of which one emerges as an adult. I don’t know about anyone else, but after graduation I would go to church and no longer be greeted with, “Good morning, how’s school going?” but rather, “Good morning, are you seeing anyone?” While I have heard a sermon about singleness and contentment with it, the pastor stressed that singleness is a temporary condition, one that eventually should give way to dating and marriage. So my experience is different in that I have felt pressure from the church not to be single.

    Yet, sadly, the directive “You’ve got to find yourself a girl, mate,” assume that I have the first clue how to do that. And even more sadly, I not sure that I have that clue. It’s the primary reason I read this blog, but never post. I’m trying to get a clue before I express my relatively ignorant opinions about relationships. And certainly I’m learning. I’m a far sight better now at social interaction with the opposite sex that I was even three years ago. But I’m still single. And I have yet to master the “codes” of dating and relationships. There is, even still to a certain extent, a fear that I don’t know the rules that keeps me on the edge of the dance floor instead of out in the middle (metaphorically speaking).

    So here is the question I would ask of the members of this blog: Is the problem with relationships between young Christian men and women not so much with the men and women themselves, but with their ability to communicate with each other? I think this may well relate to the “rules” issue that I and others have mentioned. As Sarah said, courtship used to be a drawn-out and highly regulated process. My grandparents courted for some ridiculous amount of time before they got married, somewhere along the lines of 8 to 10 years if I remember correctly. My parents knew each other for quite sometime before marriage as well, and although their social codes were no doubt different than their parents, they still had them. It’s just that the rules keep changing. And my fear for all of us is that, as Christian morals seem to have less and less of a hold on society, certainly in the popular culture end of things, but in people’s everyday lives as well as previous posters have shown, Christians don’t get to make the rules about dating anymore. No longer the majority opinion in society, or at least so it seems, Christians have ceded authority for the construction of rules about relationships to people with more secular views, even the crowd who sees nothing wrong with having one-night stands with strangers picked up in bars.

    Now, as Christians, most of us are going to say, “Hey, I don’t believe in conducting my relationships that way; it’s not biblical.” We (rightfully, I believe) eschew society's dating rules. The problem is, that doesn’t leave us with much. The rules our grandparents and our parents had aren’t around any more and we don’t like the rules that are around. It’s like the guys are all at Point A on the relationship map and no one told them how to read that map to meet with the girls at Point B. So we just stand her waving frantically and wondering, “Does she even see me?”

    I believe Sarah’s claim that “it’s going to take some heroic efforts to rectify our situation” is right on target. I don’t know how it will be accomplished, but I know this blog is a step in the right direction. Communication between Christian men and women is the only way we’re going to be able to construct our own rulebook about how to behave towards one another and develop the desired romantic relationships. That’s the reason I wrote this lengthy post: I want to add another voice to the conversation.

     
  • At 5:51 AM, February 11, 2007, Blogger Adam the V said…

    Dawn - Yep!:) I've been listening to your CD for a couple weeks now. How did your set at Uncommon Ground go? I wanted to go but I had rehearsal till 11:00. Ick. Long day.

     
  • At 10:45 AM, February 11, 2007, Blogger none said…

    yax, it's good to hear your opinion. I hope you do comment more. I don't think any of us consider ourselves authorities on dating, so you are just as qualified to express your opinions as the rest of us.

    I think your point about the treatment of under-18 relationships is valid. I, personally, don't really think teenagers should be in super serious relationships, but I also don't think there's any guidance for them either. All I ever really heard from church leaders was "don't have sex" followed in later years by "be content." But what about telling me how to date? Every guideline and decision I've made about dating as a Christian has come from personal reflection, some advice from my family, and things I've read on the internet.


    As for the "rules" of dating, well... if there are rules, I certainly don't know what they are.

     
  • At 10:55 AM, February 11, 2007, Blogger The Prufroquette said…

    Yay, Matt! You always have great stuff to say (and say it well; huzzah for grad school ;), and a gift for honesty.

    So contribute! Because you're right; this isn't going to work if everyone isn't speaking to anyone. (My high school English teacher maintained that the tragic end of Romeo and Juliet was principally due to lack of communication. Juliet didn't tell Romeo she was faking her death; Romeo didn't tell her exactly where he was going; the priest sucked as a go-between; and wham-bam, they're both dead. Pretty grim.) Communication is one of the keystones of relationships of any sort, and particularly of dating/marriage/love relationships between men and women.

    So now what?

     
  • At 8:02 PM, February 11, 2007, Blogger Dawn said…

    Adam, the show went well--unfortunately the video taping part didn't happen last minute, so we're trying to find another show to do that.

    Sarah--it's the first time I've heard Romeo and Juliet phrased as a breakdown in communication, but I think that's accurate. So can we blame the priest? And by extension, church authorities and parents today?

     
  • At 5:00 AM, February 12, 2007, Blogger The Prufroquette said…

    Ooo, I like that extra step. Not because my only intention is to throw blame around and take no responsibility of my own; but it does seem to be a pattern, and the church has been relinquishing its authority to govern the lifestyles of believers (at least in Protestant circles) over the last twenty-five years. My mom has been telling me about issues that have been hounding the church I more or less grew up in, and one of the biggest problems is that the members view the church as a democracy, where they get the right to vote and to do whatever they want as long as they claim the prompting of the Holy Spirit, and where committees run amok all over the place. But the thing is, the church isn't a democracy. Churches need strong and authoritative leadership bodies to communicate in one voice God's commands to the congregation -- whether through the pastor or a board of elders.

    We're Americans, certainly, accustomed to calling our own shots. But the church isn't the place for that. Of course people's opinions should be heard and responded to; that's what any good leader or body of leaders does. But there needs to be a final word on the Word.

    This of course encompasses much more than the halting marriage rate within the church and across the nation and across the ocean. But marriage is certainly a grave issue in need of addressing.

    And the priest of R&J really did suck as a communicator; and furthermore, he didn't encourage R & J to speak to each other.

    And as a clergyman, he had the right to stand up to the feuding clans and to say, This is wrong, people. Get over it or receive church sanctions for refusing the teachings of the Gospel! But he didn't. Because until the clan leaders were brought to their knees by grief in the loss of their children, he was afraid. The church leaders seem to be afraid of the anger of their members, the parents afraid of anger of their children, that they don't exert authority; and the risks they run in exercising it are far less dangerous than standing up to the Montagues and Capulets.

     
  • At 12:54 PM, February 12, 2007, Blogger Dawn said…

    "But the thing is, the church isn't a democracy. Churches need strong and authoritative leadership bodies to communicate in one voice God's commands to the congregation -- whether through the pastor or a board of elders."

    I'm not sure that the church isn't a democracy--you see things in the NT along the lines of voting. That said, I agree that those in authority in the church should exercise that within reasonable boundaries, particularly in the case of pointing out when the congregation is in error in spiritual issues. Democracies still need strong leadership.

     

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